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Talk:Timeline
This talk page's sole purpose is discussion regarding issues with the article itself. If you have a timeline theory of your own, please create a personal userpage for it. Severe Timeline Mistakes A lot if issues have been brought up with Nintendo's terrible translation, and Miyamoto's often manic, careless attitude. Throw in the issues of maintaining a moneymaking strategy over almost thirty years now, and you see the problems with the Zelda series' timeline. However, I believe that Miyamoto and others have done an amazing job tracking the history of two things in particular: The Master Sword, and the Triforce. The issue that throws most people off, is that the Triforce was incorrectly translated several times. There are places where they meant to say "Light Force", and instead wrote "Triforce". Triforce refers to the individual triangles, while the "Light Force" is the actual "Triforce" that we Americans have accidentally come to know and love. The Legend of Zelda: This game contains a vastly important amount of backstory (I still have my original manual from my first edition copy) exclusively in the manual. The Ganon/Gannon discussion back in the early 90s was what started the entire multiple Gannondorf argument. Gannondorf was originally introduced as a "King of Darkness" in the Legend of Zelda. He had no backstory, and no description, as nobody had survived the telling of his tale. Zelda also is not mentioned within the game itself. However, Impa is a significant part of the story, and introduces Zelda, and the breaking of the Triforce of wisdom. At the time, there were only two Triforces, Wisdom, and Power. It is stated that Ganon himself (who is often called by two names, one seems to refer to the man, the other seems to refer to the beast, but this is later taken advantage of by Miyamoto, and was likely not initially intended. It seems like more of a "Gravity is weaker in Nirn" argument to cover up for a mistake.) invaded from outside of hyrule. It does not mean that he invaded from another land, but that he, and his dark minions simply came from elsewhere. Since there is no mention of his origin, it leaves room for later explanation, which Miyamoto capitalized on greatly. Zelda II: The Adventure of Link This is often the most heavily overlooked game in the series, and was the second-most poorly translated Zelda game ever released. This backstory explains that Link was called to Hyrule by the legacy of the Triforce of Courage, which manifests in the one who will come forth to conjure it to conquer evil and reunite the Triforce into the "Light Force". Zelda II introduces the most important elements of the game: The Three Triforces, Ganon's resilient nature as a spirit of evil, and reincarnation of the "Judge of Courage". However, it should be noted that Zelda herself contradicts all timelines from within the manual. It is stated that all daughters of the Hylian Royal family will be henceforth named Zelda. This seems to have been a tradition leading all the way backward through time from our apparent timeline. Zelda: A Link to the Past (EU/US) / Triforce of the Gods (JP) The manual spends a great deal of time describing the events of "The Binding war", which until approximately 2002 or 2003, was largely believed to be where Miyamoto pulled the story of Ocarina of Time from. Ganondorf is seen in his Pig form acting from the dark world, where he is sealed away. It is suggested that Link undoes the damage to Hyrule, but nothing is done to the Golden Land, which due to Ganon's invasion of Hyrule in The Legend of Zelda, it seems to have been left with Ganon's ashes still within, and his minions finding some way to resurrect him. (Of course, The Adventure of Link states that he needs Link's blood to return... So there's a small plot hole for Ganon's return to Hyrule. In order to place A Link to the past, one must place the events of the Legend of Zelda and Zelda II after this game. Why? The Master Sword. The Master Sword makes no further appearance after the end of this game. Simply because it was sealed away "never to be used again" according to the end-game cinematic. Link's Awakening: This game has no real place in the Zelda Canon other than the statement that it was indeed the Link of A Link to the Past. The events of this game actually occur within the dreams of the Wind Fish, and therefore, have no basis in any timeline or reality. All we know is that Link went out to sea at some point after A Link to the Past. Ocarina of Time: Ocarina of Time was created with the backstory of the "binding war" in mind. The seven sages, the Master Sword, and Ganon's backstory all link this game to being a prequel of at least one generation of A Link to the Past (A thousand years or more is more likely, however.) Minish Cap/Four Swords/Four Swords Adventures These games tell the story of Vaati, and the Four Sword. The Four sword was rumored to have been created by the the Minish, a people who lived in the sky, and brought down with them the "Light Force". The sword resembles the Master Sword, and "Is resistant to Magic", which was the exact quality of the Master Sword. The Master Sword was constructed specifically to ward off the magic of the "Light Force." Why would the Minish bring the Light Force to earth without the power to counter it? Why would the bring some sword that had nothing to do with the "Light Force" at all? Perhaps this was a coincidence, but due to the upcoming information from Skyward Sword, we can reasonably determine that the Skyward Sword IS the Four Sword, and the Four Sword IS the Master Sword. This is a bit of a stretch using the Canon, but the A Link to the Past states that the Sages imbued a sword with the the power to counter the Light Force's Magic. In The Ocarina of Time, the Light Force itself was sealed BY the Master Sword. In A Link the the Past, the Triforce is guarded by a barrier that only the Master Sword can open. This is a dual layer of defense, seeing as the sword is also the only thing that can defeat an individual who bears the Triforce of Power, the only case where there would be a need to undo the evil the Light Force could unleash. This puts it either before, or after the Ocarina of Time story, my guess is before, simply because the Four Sword seems to have lost its "splitting" power after some time. (Note the resemblance between the original renditions of the swords!) Note that In the Ocarina of Time, the Light Force was scattered to three individuals. Ganon was "killed" and sealed in the dark realm still holding the Triforce of Power. Alternate Timelines: Ocarina of Time had to create multiple timelines, due to the paradox theory. Link awakens to find the Master Sword put back in place, and lives out his childhood, while simultaneously living out his adult life in the alternate timeline. In Child Link's timeline, Gannondorf cannot seize power because Link will not gather the stones to set the plan in motion in the first place, thus undoing the future timeline and cutting it off from becoming an infinite loop. Child Link's Timeline contains the Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess games, which MUST come before A Link to the Past, due to the Master Sword being in use in both games. However, Twilight Princess introduces the Shadow Realm, and Termina. Termina is an alternate world with an entirely different creation myth, which seems to be plagued by a time distortion, and Twilight Princess focuses on the Shadow world. Remember A Link to the Past? Everything in the Dark World is transformed into something else, and mirrored on the other side? Ocarina of Time seems to have a different way of thought, that it's just the future as Gannondorf molded it, so I would argue that Gannondorf was actually never in the Dark World, just the future. In the end, it would make more sense that Twilight Princess' backstory ties in, and states that Gannondorf was banished to the Dark world, which led to the events of Twilight Princess itself. This creates an obvious bridge to Ocarina of Time. Also, Twilight Princess creates a clear bridge to A Link to the past, with the sacred grove overtaking the Temple of Time, where the Master Sword rests in A Link to the Past. Also note the Master Sword preserving the form of Link in the Shadow realm. This points to the same phenomenon in A Link to the Past. (Liberal time distortions in this one too... seems to be a theme here) Anybody who has been following, will note that my timeline has now been established, but I'm further going to continue this point, because the timeline is VERY obvious once you track the history of the artifacts, and not the characters themselves. Adult Link's Timeline, however demonstrates that the "Link" persona resurfaces elsewhere to boys who are gifted with certain traits, and the "Hero of Time" himself is not only remembered in Legend, but also chosen by the Triforce of Courage, which has been reincarnating itself into individuals through time. This is Shown in Windwaker, which, while being a fantastic game, was one of the hardest pieces of the puzzle to solve until Twilight Princess explained what happened to Gannondorf. In the end, Gannondorf cannot himself be fully destroyed while in posession of the Triforce of Power. There is a small problem with this timeline, however. The Master Sword was lost to the bottom of the sea after Gannondorf's defeat, meaning this timeline is quite possibly not ever again recovered. Meaning, this timeline cannot possibly connect to A Link to the Past directly. Obviously, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks follow the same link in this timeline, and Tetra suggests a reincarnation of Zelda herself. So this is quite possibly a completely unlinked timeline. Now, Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons are not able to be placed in the main timeline, but from what I can tell, Capcom was trying to put them in between or After A Link to the Past, and Link's Awakening, as the games were modeled after those two games. Any usage of the Master Sword however, is incidental, because it involves a password within the game. I'm going to go ahead and call these two games not part of the timeline at all, and lump them in with the CD-i games, as being marketing tactics, and not part of the overall story arc, seeing as they have little to do with the story of the artifacts that tell the tale themselves. So, due to these factors and references: Zelda II: The Adventure of Link English/Japanese manual Zelda: A Link to the Past English/Japanese manual (Online interviews from Skyward Sword) (References to the Four Sword and the Minish) Ocarina of Time's backstory (creation of the Tri/Light Force) The timeline has clearly been painstakingly tracked to: GENERATION I: 1. Skyward Sword GENERATION II: 2. Minish Cap GENERATION III: 3. Four Swords* 4. Four Swords Adventures* GENERATION IV: 5. Ocarina of Time (child) 6. Majora's Mask GENERATION V: 7. Twilight Princess GENERATION VI: 8. A Link to the Past 9. Link's Awakening* 10. Oracle of Ages*/Oracle of Seasons* GENERATION VII: 11. The Legend of Zelda 12. Zelda II: Link's Adventure GENERATION IV (alternate): 5. Ocarina of Time (adult) GENERATION V (alternate): 6. Windwaker 10. Phantom Hourglass 11. Spirit Tracks * = Not part of a canonical timeline, because of conflicting information or other problems I would also like to point out the Gannondorf inconsistencies. Gannondorf himself has been reinvisioned about five times since his introduction. He has been a pig-faced sorceror, a desert bandit, a sorcerous theif, a king of the Garudo, an evil spirit, etc. Ganondorf has gone through numerous changes because of artistic difference. You will find his backstory very clear on who he was and what he hails from, even through the games. Gerudo are renown bandits in Hyrule, and live in a harsh environment. Ganondorf simply sought the Triforce of power to make his kingdom as Lush as Hyrule's, but eventually, when the Triforce came to his grasp, as the Link to the Past manual states, as all other men have before him, been reduced to a greedy power-seeker. Ganondorf starts out as the Garudo King (Read bandit king) with powers of the black arts (both in Ocarina/Link to the Past manuals!), and therefore, his form was twisted into the Piggish form in the Dark World. He does not openly appear in Zelda II, but in the Legend of Zelda, he does have a piggish form. Note the Pig form has only actually maintained for 2 games. Ocarina of time had him in a beast (somewhat pig-like) form, and other games have him becoming more feral and beast-like. Note that Ganon does appear in both Four Swords games, however, this is technically speaking before his arrival in the timeline. This is why I put them with special markers. Perhaps Gerudo are very long-lived? Also, why is he in pig form with the trident BEFORE the creation of the Master Sword and before his first bid to steal the Triforce? Also, why has he burned his bridges with the Gerudo before presenting himself as emmissary of the Gerudo? In my opinion, these inconsistencies place the Four Swords games almost out of the Canon, were it not for the artifact timelines. Also note the Generation headers. This shows the reincarnation of the Hero of Time/Judge of Courage. This was clearly stated in the manual for Zelda II, and implied heavily in both Windwaker and Twilight Princess. mistake regarding adult and child timelines following ocarina of time wouldn't Windwaker follow the child timeline, taking place after Majora's Mask? i only say this because in the intro of Windwaker it tells the story of show Ganondorf was sealed by the hero of time and everyone was happy, yadda yadda yadda. But one day Ganondorf escaped the seal and ravaged the land. the people prayed the hero would come and save them again but he never did and so the land was flooded and covered with water. what I believe may have happened is that as we know link sealed ganondorf, and then went back in time to live out his life. so mabey link went back in time, at which point ganondorf freed himself and link couldn't fight him again because he was stuck in termaina for Majora's Mask. pretty much, here's what i think it should be: Ocarina of time (adult) -> Twilight Princess Ocarina of time (child) -> Majora's Mask -> Windwaker -> Phantom Hourglass -> Spirit Tracks Fighting back... It's a good point, but in order for the split timeline theory to work, Wind Waker has to come first on the adult timeline and Majora's Mask first on the child. Ganondorf is sealed at the end of OoT, then Link is sent back and the timeline splits. Majora's Mask is a direct sequel to OoT, and Wind Waker follows years after OoT, but it must be on a new timeline because it's about when Link isn't there. Also, we know that Twilight Princess is 100 years after OoT. Hyrule was flooded in the adult timeline, and that is not shown in Twilight Princess. Also, too many references are made. It wouldn't make sense. Furthermore, you've put TP on the adult timeline, when it HAS to come on the child in order for the theory to work. Zeldafreak09 (talk) Skyward Sword is before Ocarina of Time http://www.gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=130953 One thing I don't understand First off I always assumed that Link wasn't there when Ganondorf was free because he left the adult Link timeline and into a new timeline so he wasn't there when it happened but what I don't understand is if Ganondorf was stopped and he never got the triforce in that timeline shouldn't it still be in one piece in twilight princess since it only gets split when an evil person touches it? There is no paradox in Ocarina of Time. If the Ocarina works the same way as it always did it would have sent Link back to the time when Ganon was already in the Sacred Realm planning his attack on the Light World. This is proved by the look on young Zelda's face at the end of the game, because she knows that Ganon is comming. It also gives her time to turn into Shiek. If you take Minish Cap, Four Swords, Four Sword Adventure, and both Oracle Games out of the Cannon it is easier to see the timeline. Consider those games to be the Legend part of Zelda(just like the cd-i games). Also, some text may also have to be considered. The most obvious being at the end of A link to the Past where it says that the Master Sword is never used again. That is not true. A Link to the Past has to be the first Zelda so far because it explains that the Master Sword was created by the Sages during the Imprisoning War. Years pass and Link has to fight Ganon. He destroys Ganon. In, Link's Awakening Ganon's Spirit is held in the World of Koholint. When Link awakens the Wind Fish, Ganon's Spirit is released and he takes the form of a Moblin from the Legend of Zelda hudreds of years later of course. The Link from a Link to the Past eventually becomes King, his daughter is the Zelda from The Adventure of Link. We all know what happens to her. He has his son to thank for that. Hundreds of years later, Link is reborn as is Ganon in the form of an enormous Moblin. He defeats ganon and the events of Zelda II unfold approx 7 years later. Link is 16. He finds the last triforce and the whereabouts of the lost Master Sword, he has the Temple of Time built. Remeber the old man at the end of Zelda II, he is actually the King of Old(the Link from A Link to the PAst) he tells Link from Zelda II where the MAster Sword is. The ocarina of Time takes place a couple hundred years later than Zelda II. Ganon has reincarnated himself yet again as a gerudu this time. About ten years before the begining of the game Link is brought to the Deku Tree during a war to unify Hyrule. This could explain why Zora's were enemies in the past and where Gorons came from(previously at war). Going on what I originally said about the ocarina, Link leaves for Termina to avoid Ganon's Destruction. Link returns from Termina when he is 17, and Ganon is gone. Much like the back to the future series Link appears right behind Zelda the second she sends him home. He helps her to rebuild and they even build the Prison from Twilight Princess. 700 years later Ganon escapes the dark realm and returns to the world of light only to be sent to the twilight realm by the sages. About 500 years after that the events from Twilight Princess take place. The link form Twilight Princess becomes none other than the King of Red Lions. He lives for Two Hundred Years. Then Ganon arises from the depths of the world and the flood begins. 1400 years after that the events of wind waker take place and the hour glass and finally spirit tracks. The new game skyward sword will most likly take place before A link to the past even though the manual was clear that the sword was made during the first imprisonment of ganon. The skyward sword was probably created by the bird like race introduced in Twilight Princess. The sword somehow becomes the MAster Sword. Then when the Imprisoning war happens, the MAster sword is not actually created but rather re discovered. This theory seems to make the most sence to me, plus, it has some cool parts, like the King of Red Lions actually being the Link fro Twilight, and the Link from a Link to the PAst is the King from Zelda II. Take it however you like but I don't think the timeline ever splits. The ocarina would have to work the same way it did throughtout the game. It takes you back into the past, but, past events have already transpired. Atleast, that's my take anyway. However you do view the timeline, the cool thing is that it is conjecture because it is after all, The Legend of Zelda. Confirmation This. --AuronKaizer ' 17:41, December 19, 2011 (UTC) :To me, this seems front page news worthy. It's not every day that we get info about the official timeline's impending release. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 17:58, December 19, 2011 (UTC) ::Hrm, I call BS. According to this, the only place we're getting this "timeline being revealed" idea from is a part of the book's table of contents, the same thing displayed on AK's link. This list is apparently describing SS, OoT, TP, and WW. These are all games for which we are absolutely certain about their timeline placement already. The book itself might be front page worthy anyway given how rarely we have something to post, but timeline wise I find it very unlikely we'll see any game placements which experts like ourselves haven't already known of for years. In any case, I wouldn't post any claims of timeline revelation without further info. It sounds to me like a bunch of journalists misinterpreting something and making a huge fuss over nothing (as per usual journalism standards). By the way, does anyone know who wrote this book?--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce]][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 03:38, December 20, 2011 (UTC) :::EDIT: FYI, further research strongly supports the idea that there is no further evidence of a timeline revelation as of right now, and various other sources share my skepticism that we'll actually learn anything new.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 04:06, December 20, 2011 (UTC) ::::Until further notice, I agree with FD. Everything I have seen so far only suggests that only what is already blatantly obvious about the timeline will be in this book. Hopefully, that's how it will actually turn out. Jedimasterlink (talk) 09:33, December 21, 2011 (UTC) And this. --Auron'Kaizer ' 16:01, December 21, 2011 (UTC)